TheGoldSeat

10 responses so far ↓

• 1 Ben The Professor // Jun 3, 2008 at 9:54 am

  Nice topic, Drew. However, I don’t know how you can be so black and white on this issue. I completely agree with you that Kobe is not as great as Jordan; however, I disagree with all the reasons you stated.
  First of all, the reason people are comparing Kobe to Jordan now is because of his play THIS year, not career stats. This year Kobe is averaging 1.8 fewer points than Jordan, but is higher in assists, free throws attempted, minutes played, 3 point percentage (by a mile), rebounds and free throw percentage. The only categories you listed that Kobe is behind Jordan’s career stats this year are points (insignificantly) and steals. However, the steals category is deceiving because, like Jordan, Kobe is considered one of the top perimeter defenders in the league, which there is no real stat for except being selected to the all defensive team, which Kobe has been on for the last 5 years or so.
  The notion that you can’t compare Kobe and Jordan because Jordan has more titles is also overstated. If you went by that logic you could never compare a current player and player from the past. Obviously Kobe doesn’t have as many titles as Jordan, he’s STILL PLAYING (and is in the finals..). Therefore, titles are a mute point and should not be in the equation until Kobe retires.
  The supporting cast thing is silly too. The Bulls were a dynasty from top to bottom. Center was always their weak position, but this year Kobe is playing with Vladamir Radmonovic and Derek Fischer in the starting lineup, so.. Also, the Bulls always had great power forwards that took the pressure off of the center (Rodman, Ho Grant, etc.) Pippen was one of the top 50 players of all time and was the All Star MVP the year Jordan was playing baseball. Oh yeah, the Bulls made the playoffs that year without Jordan too.. I doubt the Lake Show would have made the playoffs this year without Kobe with Odom leading the way.
  I know that this makes me ‘look silly’ in your mind, but I like the comparisons. Not because I would take Kobe over Jordan if I was building a team, but because I don’t think it’s blasphemy to be open to the idea that maybe someone might equal the greatness of old number 23. I am going to watch this year’s finals intently, because we are truly seeing a player who is as close to being Jordan as we’ve seen for 10 years.

• 2 Hoots McGavin // Jun 3, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  I think you both make good points. For the record I think Jordan is better and will always be better. At this very moment Kobe is one of the best in the NBA. However, I think the difference is that Jordan was the undisputed best. Everyone and anyone was pretty much saying he is the best player to ever play the game. He took a couple years off in his prime, came back into the league and won 3 more titles. And there was no doubt Jordan was the reason they won those titles. Jordan was just at a different level. In today’s game you have Lebron, CP3, Dirk and they are all MVP type players. You could make the argument Lebron or CP3 is better than Kobe. You couldn’t do that with Jordan, just think of the 1992 Dream Team, the greatest players of a 20 year period and they would all tell you Jordan is the best. I think Kobe’s problem was that he played with Shaq. Shaq wins titles with Kobe and DWade and gets to the finals with a pathetic Magic team. Kobe has always been in the shadow of Shaq because up till this year, the only success the Lakers had was when Shaq was there. Kobe would have to win 2 or 3 more titles on his own to even be included in the conversation. Magic, Bird, Jordan they all won titles when they were the team. Kobe has yet to do that. But he still has time. He may be top 20 all-time at this point, but he’s nowhere near Jordan. Jordan was like Tiger Woods, he completely revolutionized his sport. Every little kid grew up wanting to be Jordan, he did things nobody could on the court. Kobe just scores a lot. For the record Jordan won 5 MVP’s. Is 2nd all-time in steals, led the league in steals 3 times, led the league in scoring 10 times, led the league in player efficientcy 7 times and was 1st team all-defense 9 times. And a whole bunch of other awards and accomplishments. Kobe has a long way to go. Let’s talk again when he retires.

• 3 Drew // Jun 3, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  The problem with comparisons is that there always has to be a frame of reference when comparing. In your arguments, you choose to compare 1 year against Jordan’s entire career. That is not a good comparison because those are apples to oranges.

  Have players had better seasons that Jordan’s career stats? Sure. Have these same players been able to sustain their excellence over a career. The answer is frankly no. That is what makes Michael Jordan one of the best (if not the best) players ever.

  If we want to compare years, please let me know which season of Jordan’s do you want to compare to this years version of Kobe. There were many years in which Jordan had better numbers than Kobe and the same can be said about Kobe having a season or two better than Jordan.

  Jordan played 14 seasons and Kobe has played 12. Should we compare Jordan and Kobe’s numbers in the first 12 years? If so, you’ll find that the difference between Kobe and Jordan are more than significant. The following stats will be as follows:

  Jordan (Kobe’s in the parenthesis)
  Point/Game - 31.7 (28.3)
  FG% - .509 (.453)
  Minutes - 38.56 (36.5)
  FT% - .840 (.839)
  3 point % - .340 (.340)
  Rebounds/Game - 6.3 (5.3)
  Assists/Game - 5.57 (4.6)
  Steals/Game - 2.55 (1.5)
  Free Throws/Game - 8.7 (7.7)

  So, I am back to my first point. The stat can be skewed anyway you’d like….. Comparing one of Kobe’s years to Jordan’s career is not a fair comparison…. I’ll take Jordan’s top 5 performing years to Kobe’s. I’ll also take Jordan over Kobe for the first 12 years in the league because as it shows above, Jordan’s stats are better than Kobe’s “by a mile”.

  Now to my other points. I agree with the notion that we can’t judge Kobe on championships as his career is not over. My point was that I believe that Kobe had a much better supporting cast than Jordan ever did. Yes, Pippen was top 50 all time. Outside of Pippen, the team primarily consisted of role players. Jordan had Pippen while Kobe (in his championship years) had Shaq, Glen Rice (at ~15 PPG), Robert Horry and a young Derek Fischer.

  Yes, Kobe is an amazing player but he is not (at this point) at the same level as Jordan was no matter how you break down the stats.

  The finals will be exciting because of the Lakers/Celtics but comparisons to Jordan aren’t there yet. Maybe we can compare when his career is all said and done but now is not the time.

  It is possible that Kobe wins it this year with Gasol

• 4 Ben The Professor // Jun 3, 2008 at 3:25 pm

  I agree that it is apples to oranges to compare one of Kobe’s years to Jordan’s career. However, that wasn’t my point. My point is that people aren’t stupid who start to compare the two BECAUSE of how well Kobe has played this year. A year ago 0 out of 100 rational people would say that Kobe could be as good as Jordan when all the dust settles on both of their careers. My point is that now, since Kobe was better this year than Jordan was in some of his years, it is not ’silly’ to at least consider that Kobe could reach Jordan’s rare air. Kobe has played in the playoffs THIS YEAR like Jordan played for 6 playoff years. That is not to say that Kobe will play like this for the next 4 or 5 years to be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, but it is to say that ever since Wilt Chamberlain retired, NOBODY has played like Jordan EVER, not even for 1 year. I believe Kobe is the first person to play like Jordan in the last 20 years. For the first time in his career he is a complete player. He is making everyone better, he passes, the guy he guards doesn’t score, he shoots 3’s at almost 40%, he gets to the line like Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown at Le Deux, he plays point for extended minutes, etc. He is leaps and bounds ahead of CP3 and Lebron. Both of those players are amazing, but have holes in their games that they would admit to, Kobe does not. Not this year at least.
  Just as an aside, there is no way that Glen Robinson (when he played for the Lakers), Robert Horry and Derek Fischer are as good as John Paxon, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Stacy King or the Worm. You’re crazy…

• 5 Drew // Jun 3, 2008 at 7:53 pm

  A few thoughts….

  First off, Glen Robinson never played for the Lakers. It was Glen Rice who by the way was a productive veteran for the Lakers.

  Second, BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Grant,King and the Worm did not play together. They were all apart of Bulls championships however not together.

  Third, I still do feel that it’s somewhat crazy that people are talking about Kobe now… If you take a close look at his regular season stats you will see that his numbers this year are on par with several other seasons except that in other seasons he averaged as much as 6 points more per game while only having 1 less assist.

  His playoff stats are not that different either. Given that the playoffs aren’t over (so there is an opportunity for him to skew the number), he had better production in 2002 and even last year in 2007……all with virtually the same assists, rebound and minutes.

  My point is this: I feel that the media is talking Kobe v. Jordan for nothing more than creating a buzz. The NBA is down so the best bet is to try to create something that isn’t there. His regular and post season stats are NOT different than other years and if he wasn’t talked about then…..then it makes me wonder WHY he’s discussed now.

  Statistically they don’t match up. They don’t match up with NBA success. They don’t match up in popularity.

  Certainly Kobe can be discussed in the conversation of the best ever however those who believe that he might have eclipsed (see: Mark Jackson) have literally lost their minds.

• 6 Ben The Professor // Jun 4, 2008 at 7:58 am

  Just watch one of the Laker-Celtic games at home, by yourself, and you’ll understand. The way Kobe has played this year in the playoffs goes way beyond stats. He’s playing like Jordan, if you don’t get it, you must not be watching the games. You won’t get it if you’re just watching highlights or flipping to the game every half hour for a couple minutes. Jordan did it for 6 years, Kobe has now done it for one, we’ll see if Kobe can keep up the pace for the next half decade.

• 7 Oneil // Jun 7, 2008 at 12:24 am

  Ok, I’ve read everyone’s opinion on this matter and i must say that everyone has a couple good points to support their argument. I’ll give another reason why Kobe will never be better than Mike n the magic word is CHARISMA. People felt for Mike, ppl saw him suffer to get thru the pistons, people felt compassionate for Jordan. Mike was loved by almost everyone because of how he played the game. Kobe is known for being arrogant, cocky, senseless and non-caring. Jordan was bigger than life and Kobe will never be that. If we comparing their skills, leadership and will to win - I’d pick Jordan hands down!!! Kobe may be great at some areas better than Jordan but overall Jordan was the best at what he did, Jordan’s fade-away jumpshot alone kills all Kobe skills.

• 8 Amer Malas // Jun 18, 2008 at 10:11 am

  Ben, the professor…

  what do you think of kobe now????

• 9 2DogsWhat // Jun 18, 2008 at 2:32 pm

  Good stuff. Kobe let the world down.

  Here are 12 reasons Kobe can’t touch Jordan.

  Excuses: Kobe fans always defend Kobe’s numbers by saying that he played with Shaq so his numbers were lower. Well look at this. Pippen’s career high with Jordan was 21 in 91-92. When Jordan first retired it only went up to 22. Pippen had to play with the greatest ever Jordan, wouldn’t conventional wisdom make you think his average would jump by 5 or 6 points with out him?

  Jordan never lost in the finals. Kobe has lost twice.

  Kobe can be taken out of his game. Even when the “Jordan Rules” were in place; Mike always got his.

  Kobe averages 30.725 in the 4 years after Shaq. Jordan averaged 30.75 in his first years in the league! Wouldn’t you think Kobe in his prime should be way better than Jordan as a rookie?

  Jordan averaged 33.4 points in the playoffs. Even if I cheat and take Kobe’s 4 highest playoff averages, he comes in at 30.05. Still lower than Jordan!

  The “it” factor: I don’t care what people say, Kobe is not clutch. Can you tell me one shot in the playoffs that is memorable from Kobe? I remember Horry. I remember Shaq’s dunk. But where is Kobe? I keep hearing how clutch he is with no visual evidence. Okay, there is more to being clutch than one big shot, so feel free to tell me what playoff game he took over and won that even resembled what Lebron did to Detroit.

  Mental. How is the supposed best best player in the world only score 3 field goals in the second half on a series clinching game.

  Killer Instinct: If Kobe has a killer instinct like everyone says, how do you let someone comeback from 24 down and win in the NBA finals.

  Leadership: When Jordan snapped on his teammates, they got better. With Kobe they get worse.

  Player Respect: Everyone in the league knew J was the best. No questions. There wasn’t another mammal on earth that could be compared to him when it came to basketball. Players liked him. And modeled their game after him while he was still playing! (Exhibit A, Kobe Bryant). With Kobe he has had peers. Shaq for a while, T-MAC for a minute, now Lebron. That never happen with AIR.

  Hardware: 3 rings is great; but only half of 6. Let’s not talk MVP’s. Everyone knows Jordan should have won the MVP from 84 to 98. Even when he was playing baseball.

  Street Cred: Kobe snitched on Shaq and got him divorce. Kobe quit on his teammates in 04 and he quit in 08. Kobe acted soft last summer when it came to his trade demands.

  http://2dogswhat.blogspot.com/

• 10 Eric Aycock // Jul 1, 2008 at 7:43 am

  I have read through all of the comments briefly and I was shocked that no one seemed to put the author of this article in his place about a wrong fact. He stated that Kobe won a lone championship, when the man has 3 titles from his own 3-peat. Plus I looked at the stats and they are not a mile apart based on the first 12 seasons. Now don’t get me twisted, Jordan is the best of all time with Wilt Chamberlain but Kobe is not some slouch. I wish people would stop hating on Kobe for what the media says. They do that to all players, Lebron got it when he first came into the league but fans fell in love with his playful personality and passion for the game. They see Kobe as a selfish conceited athlete. I’ve never heard him compare himself to Jordan, but I don’t ride his dick like some people do so I may have missed that one. Anyone is entitled to their own opinion, but do your research before you voice it and come off sounding like an idiot. Kobe will get more titles and was cheated out of one MVP. Nash deserved one of those, not both. Lastly lets remember two things. Kobe came in the league 3-4 years younger than Jordan. Lets compare there numbers from 21 to 36 when that time comes, instead of basing everything on the first 14 years of Kobes career with Jordan’s 14 years when that time comes. Secondly we should remember that Pippen although a great hall of fame player, was not a big scorer. Not to say that Kobe’s scoring average would be higher than Jordan’s, but I guarantee that it would have been closer if Kobe didn’t have shaq but that would have been bad. He would have been like A.I., a ridiculous scorer but no title to show for it. Maybe he would have had one but I think without Shaq on the Lakers, Kobe wouldn’t have learned how to win. Now however, as a more mature superstar basketball player, and more of his own man in his NBA life, Kobe is more than capable of winning atleast one more title on his own. I think Kobe will have 5 titles by the time he is the age Jordan was when he retired. I loved some of the responses but some of you people just sound hateful towards Kobe. Look, I’m a Duke fan who still likes UNC, so why can’t people love Jordan and still like Kobe and give him his due credit.

Leave a Comment